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Ovo je diskusija na temu Dokazivanje u podforumu Filozofija
Evo ga uprošteni eksperiment: Novčić se baca n puta (ispaljuje ga ...

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Filozofija Vaše razumjevanje misterija egzistencije i stvarnosti

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Nepročitano 19-07-15, 22:31   #1
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Zadani Dokazivanje

Evo ga uprošteni eksperiment:

Novčić se baca n puta (ispaljuje ga idealna mašina) i registruje rezultat: glava ili pismo. Ako dobijanje pisma proglasimo uspješnim rezultatom, onda se ovaj događaj povinuje tzv. binomnoj raspodjeli. U beskonačno pokušaja dobijamo rezultat da smo 50% uspješni (matematička tvrdnja).

Dovedemo u eksperiment čovjeka koji mentalno utiče na rezultat (pretpostavimo da možemo da izolujemo okruženje kako ništa drugo ne može da utiče sem tog čovjeka) i on se trudi da naredi mašini da ispaljuje pismo. Očitovanje poslije dovoljno broja bacanja novčića pokazuje 55% uspješnosti pisma. (Ovo se već aproksimira normalnom raspodjelom, jer tzv. centralna granična teorema kaže da to važi za n veće ili jednako od 30). Matematika i dalje tvrdi, u datim uslovima, uz isključenje subjektivnog, da su šanse ostale 50%. Ista ta matematika kaže da ako uključimo subjekta i uvedemo novi uslov kao neki broj (ako znamo kako) da ćemo dobiti tih 55% (tzv. matematičko očekivanje). Kvantna mehanika (fizika) neće osporiti novi rezultat, jer rezultat zavisi od posmatrača, iako neće znati da ga objasni baš najbolje.

Zaključak: svijest (namjera) tamo nekog nebitnog lika izmijenila je opipljivu 3D realnost.

E, sad, šta sam htjela ovim: da bi laik razumio eksperiment, mora dobro da poznaje i matematiku i fiziku (da ne idem u druga potrebna znanja), ali, na žalost, većina populacije nema toliko talenta ili ih prosto ne zanima. Šta ostaje, da vjeruje naučnoj tvrdnji, dakle VJERUJE (isto važi i za naučnike u oblasti o kojoj nemaju pojma).

Naučnici nešto tvrde na osnovu tzv. dokaza, koji se očitavaju nekim od 5 čula, pretpostavljajući da ono što ne mogu na ovaj način da potvrde ne postoji. Ili kažu da nema načina da to dokažemo ili da još nemamo tehnologiju da dokažemo. U svakom slučaju, oni ipak uvijek tvrde na osnovu informacija koje imaju, zaboravljajući da možda baš ključnu nemaju. Jer nemaju načina da je očitaju pa i ne postoji za njih.

Naravno da su i dokazali mnogo toga što funkcioniše.

Oni sad drugi ljudi, koji ne vjeruju naučnicima, niti im trebaju 'materijalistički' dokazi, vjeruju u nešto drugo, dakle, i oni VJERUJU.

Poenta je da svi nešto vjeruju!!!

E, sad, dopunite, ispravite ili šta god u ovome što sam prethodno navela, poenta je ne vršiti nasilje nad drugima SVOJIM vjerovanjima, jer su jednako validna, pod izgovorom kako ovaj drugi ne zna i slično. Kad kažem nasilje mislim na ad hominem prvenstveno, mada i na druge elemente.

Predlažem da pokušamo naći neku neutralnu 'istinu', ako već hoćemo da nešto istražimo.




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Nepročitano 19-07-15, 23:55   #2
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Zadani

Podržavam tvoju temu i razmišljanja
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Nepročitano 20-07-15, 00:08   #3
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Zadani

A sad možemo na problem:

Prvo, šanse da padne pismo ili glava (u JEDNAKIM uvjetima) UVIJEK su 50:50.
(Zato kazina zarađuju, jer neuki misle ako je na ruletu 5 x bilo crveno, sad je veća šansa da padne crno. NE, NIJE. Osim toga, tu je i zeleni broj 0, koji nije ne crno ni crveno pa luzeri imaju još njame šanse a "kuća" veće.)

Uvedeš li novi uvjet, štajaznam, promjenu leptirovog leta ili sunčeve baklje, whatever), uključuješ fiziku i uključuješ više varijabli. Pritom rezultat teži utjecaju uključenih varijabli.

Uvedeš li utjecaj subjektivno tj. ljudsku psihu koja mentalno utječe na rezultat, to je opet nova varijabla.

A uvedeš li opet novu varijablu, utjecaj "viših sila" na rezultat, bojim se da bi svaki pokušaj kvantifikacije propao.

No, ako "ovi gore" ili "Ovaj Gore Sveznajući" zna sve, za očekivati je da zna šta radi: ne da nam znati ono što nam nije namijenjeno znati, već je stvari postavio tako da VJERUJEMO
(bez točke na kraju, da misao ostane otvorena).
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Nepročitano 20-07-15, 07:11   #4
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Zadani

Ako je jedna strana kovanice teža,recimo,na jednoj strani su slova i mali list a na drugoj faca Tuđmana i biblija slova,za očekivati je da će ta teža strana manje puta pokazait,recimo kao i kad vam padne kruh sa marmeladom namazanom kaj ne?

Drugo,mislim da ovisi isto ovisi o snazi uma pojedinca koji baca novčić koliko će se postotak povećat ili smanjiti od tih 55%
Ako govorimo,naravno,o tom dijelu učinka na prirodu.
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Nepročitano 20-07-15, 09:18   #5
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http://www.psiarcade.com/research/HealingIntention.pdf


sjedi mirno zatvorenih ociju i ravne kicme bar 20 minuta



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Nepročitano 20-07-15, 09:19   #6
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Zadani

mislim da se to zove micro-PK

neki testovi pokazuju devijaciju u nasumicnoj distribuciji, dok neki ne.


Koga vise zanima neka procita the intention experiment


sjedi mirno zatvorenih ociju i ravne kicme bar 20 minuta



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Nepročitano 20-07-15, 10:34   #7
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Zadani

Citat:
Originally Posted by bojamunje Pogledaj Post
mislim da se to zove micro-PK

neki testovi pokazuju devijaciju u nasumicnoj distribuciji, dok neki ne.

Koga vise zanima neka procita the intention experiment
Da, trebao si onaj link staviti na ovu temu.


slobodni.net za slobodni svijet



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Nepročitano 20-07-15, 12:44   #8
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Citat:
Originally Posted by bojamunje Pogledaj Post
bolje bi bilo da to staviš na svoju temu dokazivanja, ovdje ćemo otić u oftopik a tamo to ima smisla, jer je vezano za temu
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Nepročitano 20-07-15, 12:55   #9
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Zadani

Citat:
Originally Posted by MadMax111 Pogledaj Post
Ako je jedna strana kovanice teža,recimo,na jednoj strani su slova i mali list a na drugoj faca Tuđmana i biblija slova,za očekivati je da će ta teža strana manje puta pokazait,recimo kao i kad vam padne kruh sa marmeladom namazanom kaj ne?

Drugo,mislim da ovisi isto ovisi o snazi uma pojedinca koji baca novčić koliko će se postotak povećat ili smanjiti od tih 55%
Ako govorimo,naravno,o tom dijelu učinka na prirodu.
mislim da kruh s pekmezom ne pada statistički više puta na pekmez nego na drugu stranu. ako se dobro sjećam, napravljeno je znanst. istraživanje
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Nepročitano 20-07-15, 14:07   #10
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Citat:
Originally Posted by sinkezg Pogledaj Post
mislim da kruh s pekmezom ne pada statistički više puta na pekmez nego na drugu stranu. ako se dobro sjećam, napravljeno je znanst. istraživanje
A koja je to "druga" strana nego ona s pekmezom?

To je 'istraživanje' inače navedeno u knjizi Peterovo načelo.


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